| Author |
Gasping and strange appearance |
Livi
Member
Posts: 46
Location: Hungary
Joined: 17.03.09 |
| Posted on 31-03-2009 19:15 |
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Hi! I'm a beginner in fishkeeping and I'm worried about my two little goldfishes and thought maybe you could help. I'm also attaching a photo of them to let you see what's going on.
The problem:
My fantail goldies are often gasping at the surface for short, (sometimes long) intervals. After that they usually go down to the bottom to search the gravel, but in a few minutes (sometimes less), they go back up. Sometimes they just go near the surface and stay there for awhile. They also open and close their mouth a bit rapidly for my liking. I compared them to the goldfishes at the petstore and concluded it was not a normal behavior.
(Do I need a pump/airstone too?)
Another problem is that my "tiger striped" goldfish is missing some scales. I got him/her that way and he/she seemed to be fine. Now when I took some picture I've noticed there is something that appears to be blood under the "skin" of his/her head. Or am I just "hallucinating"? I'm attaching a photo, just to make sure.
I also noticed that they sometimes "turn on their back" on the bottom or on the surface for a few seconds, but I think it's because of their huge caudal fins that make their movement harder to control especially since the surface is moving.
Otherwise both of them are quite active, only slowing down in the evening (that's when they gasp less too)
Background info:
I got my two goldfishes on the 8th of March (2009) for my birthday. They came with a small bowl, a plastic vase and some goldfish pellets. Both are fantails, approximately 5cms in length (with tail). On the 11th of March one of them (the orange one) almost died (lain on its side and haven't moved, only when I touched him/her). I immediately took it out of the bowl and put it in a small, clean plastic box filled with tap water (it was an emergency and I had no water treatment at hand). He/she came to in the box and I immediately started searching the NET for info on what's going on.
I went to the pet store, bought a 25l tank (42 cm long, 30 cm high, 20 cm wide - I keep water level at 20 cms to equal width), some gravel, a filter (internal, 300l/h) , a thermometer and some water treatment (Sera Aquatan) and set up the aquarium at once (washed the gravel, soaked the filter in treated water to remove plastic smell).
I couldn't do a fishless cycle, since I had to put my fish somewhere so they ended up in the new aquarium. Now I'm really afraid of the New Tank Syndrome. I don't have the test kit yet, but I'm really planning to get the most important ones ASAP. I'm also planning to buy a bigger aquarium: 50cm long, 35 cm wide, 40 cm high with 35cm water level. I know it's still small, but I live in a dormitory where I have no space and when my friends bought me the goldfish they thought they only needed the bowl and the food to thrive.
I regularly change the water (1/4th, sometimes a little more when I mess with the siphon). I do it at least 3 times a week, sometimes more if the water gets yellow. I always add treatment to the fresh water and let it stand for a day to reach room temperature before putting it into the tank. The water here must be pretty hard, you can see what it does to the surface of the tank-glass if you check out the attached photo.
My gravel is approx. 2-3 cm thick and a little dirty, although I "vacuum" it. Water temperature is always between 21 and 23 Celsius. My tank water is usually light yellowish-brown, but not hazy. No white fog yet.
My filter has a sponge and some active carbon in it and I manipulated it to make bubbles that "shoot" directly at the surface to cause as much surface movement as possible without "circulating" my fish in the tank.
I put an additional "bag" of carbon at the corner of the tank to help with the chemical filtration. I change both the bag and the filter carbon in ever two weeks.
After some "pre-soaking" I also put the plastic "broken vase" in for a hiding place. I put some gravel in it (in a nylon stocking), because I don't want my fish to get hurt or stuck in the vase. I don't have plants, because I was told that they would eat them anyway 
So that's how my aquarium looks right now.
...BTW I feed with Sera goldy, but I'm planning to introduce some vegetables to my goldies. I usually feed them 2-3 times a day (1-2 pinches each time), soaking the pellets to let them sink. They pick up everything they can dig out from between the gravel. I usually go home on weekends to my hometown and I don't give them food for that period (1-2 days at max).
Many thanx if you read this far. I'm sorry if it's a bit too long, but I didn't want to leave anything out that could be important.
Livi attached the following image:
Edited by Livi on 31-03-2009 19:22 |
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| Author |
RE: Gasping and strange appearance |
Livi
Member
Posts: 46
Location: Hungary
Joined: 17.03.09 |
| Posted on 31-03-2009 19:36 |
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Just another picture from another angle...
Livi attached the following image:
Edited by Livi on 31-03-2009 19:37 |
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| Author |
RE: Gasping and strange appearance |
Venus
Super Administrator
Posts: 3832
Location: Springfield Missouri
Joined: 26.08.07 |
| Posted on 31-03-2009 19:39 |
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I highly recommend you obtain water treatment that eliminates chlorine, chloramines, ammonia and nitrite. The fins on one fish looks clamped which means its getting poisoned by ammonia or nitrite.
Since you don't have a test kit and have been performing frequent changes, I'll assume your tank isn't cycled.
Over the next 3 or 4 weeks, perform daily water changes of 20% using enough treatment for entire tank size. For another 3 to 4 weeks, slowly begin backing off of the water changes, until you are performing 20% a week. By then your tank should be cycled.
I advise removing the charcoal or replace with fresh every two weeks. Charcoal is actually for tropical fish; doesn't mix well with the nitrogen cycle. After a few weeks will begin leaching toxins into the water.
The gasping is a sign the pH is extremely low or the water isn't getting oxygen. Add a handful of baking soda to tank with your next water change; mix in fresh water to dilute along with water treatment.
If you have a lid on the tank remove it to supply fresh air to the water. If you don't have a lid consider adding a pond pump to increase surface action which oxygenates water.
Perhaps you could obtain a pH tester; they are reasonably priced. There's a chance your tap water is has low pH levels; meaning soft water.
Study the 10 Steps to goldfish care; you'll learn just how to care for your fish.
http://www.goldfish-emergency.com/viewpage.php?page_id=29
Keep us posted, Venus
aboveallhouseplans.com Persistence is Omnipotent
Edited by Venus on 31-03-2009 19:42 |
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| Author |
RE: Gasping and strange appearance |
Livi
Member
Posts: 46
Location: Hungary
Joined: 17.03.09 |
| Posted on 31-03-2009 20:01 |
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Thank you for your the fast reply!
I believe Sera Aquatan (the treatment I'm currently using) is good for chlorine and chloramines, but not for ammonia and nitrate.
I'll soon get something that works for for the last two also... Can I trust the 'ammonia remover' products that can be bought at pet stores? Oh, and wouldn't it stop the cycle if I completely remove ammonia?
I'll go buy a tester and some soda tomorrow and see what's up with my pH...
I hope they won't die before I figure out how to care for them...
Thank you for your help!!! |
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RE: Gasping and strange appearance |
Venus
Super Administrator
Posts: 3832
Location: Springfield Missouri
Joined: 26.08.07 |
| Posted on 31-03-2009 20:10 |
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Yes, most of these products deliver. If you use enough treatment for the entire tank size the ammonia will be converted (not actually removed) to a safer form. Even Walmart has these treatments.
Water treatment begins to degrade after 24 hrs, so it's important to perform these daily changes until your tank cycles.
What's kept them alive is your constant water changes. If you haven't done one today sure wouldn't hurt. Goldfish use less oxygen in colder temps; so reduce the temperature in your room for a few days.
No reason to let water stand if your treating it for chlorine and chloramines.
Best of luck
They certainly are cuties
aboveallhouseplans.com Persistence is Omnipotent
Edited by Venus on 31-03-2009 20:57 |
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| Author |
RE: Gasping and strange appearance |
Livi
Member
Posts: 46
Location: Hungary
Joined: 17.03.09 |
| Posted on 02-04-2009 13:34 |
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Updates:
I took some water sample to the pet store today:
They used sera water tests and the results said ammonia and nitrite levels are near normal (a little coloration for ammonia: 0.5mg/l I believe, and almost none for nitrite: below 0.9mg/l if I recall correctly).
We also tested the pH: it's 8.5 and the water is VERY hard...
I got some water treatment products as you recommended, but now I'm a little confused, because I had to buy a different chlorine-remover brand (Niche Aqua Plus [Aqua Safe]) and I'm not sure it removes chloramine.
I also bought an air pump (for aquariums up to 15 gallons - to be suitable for the new tank) and an airstone, to move the water surface some more... Now it's pretty disturbed, but so is the silence of our dorm. room, which means I'll have to switch it off for the evening to let my roommates sleep...
How much time do I have to operate it per day to get some oxygen in the water?
Unfortunately my problem remains: my goldies are still near the surface, sometimes piping, though I believe they not as nervous as they used to be... They slowed down a bit and don't open & close their mouth that much... |
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RE: Gasping and strange appearance |
Venus
Super Administrator
Posts: 3832
Location: Springfield Missouri
Joined: 26.08.07 |
| Posted on 02-04-2009 14:06 |
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Since you've been doing so many water changes; your tank water is not showing very much ammonia, which is good. As long as you're certain the treatment removes ammonia and nitrites continue using. There's a chance your tap water isn't treated with chloramines. You might get online and check out your city's water quality. They typically specify what chemicals the water is treated with. If your tap contains chloramines; shop around for a different water treatment; no big rush.
The pH levels in your tap are extremely high. I wonder if you've added baking soda to your tank water before having it tested. Your city water website will also specify pH levels in tap. If your tap levels are actually that high, do not use soda with your partial water changes. We might have to work on lowering levels in the tank.
Air pumps are very different than pond pumps; one moves oxygen from the room through the tank water; the other moves water only. The latter is what you need; it's possible that's what you have. Air pumps, bubblers or air stones don't oxygenate the water; although it may appear to be doing so. The air bubbles are sent to the surface where the oxygen is released. Does this pump you bought sit on the outside or the inside of your tank. The mechanics of a water pump rests inside the tank.
Most pet shops sell only top loading filters which don't work well for goldfish tanks.
Here is a link to a reasonably priced water pump. If you purchase; after it arrives return the air pumps or exchange for something else you might need, which will include a filter sponge. Don't remove the air pump until you have something to replace it with. Too little is better than nothing.
http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ctl3684/cp43624/si1379849/cl0/aquariumsystemsminijet404pump
Wrap this sponge around the intake valve of the pump with a rubber band. It will act as a filter; removing floating debris. The mechanics of the pump will provide the perfect spot for friendly bugs to build; which will protect your fish from toxins.
Leave the pumps on at night; your fish need oxygen 24/7; if it runs too loudly you can place a sponge beneath to quiet the mechanics; A trick one of our members taught me.
You might feel discouraged right now, but once you've got your tank established you'll be a happy camper and so will your fish. Study the 10 Steps carefully so you can understand these complicated little creatures thoroughly.
Keep us posted, Venus
aboveallhouseplans.com Persistence is Omnipotent
Edited by Venus on 02-04-2009 14:16 |
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| Author |
RE: Gasping and strange appearance |
Livi
Member
Posts: 46
Location: Hungary
Joined: 17.03.09 |
| Posted on 02-04-2009 16:19 |
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I haven't added the baking soda yet, because I suspected from the amount of carbonates on everything this water touches, that it has a higher pH, but wanted to make sure, because I'm not that good in chemistry... Should I do something to lower the pH of the water?
I made some pictures of the water surface and the filter to let you see what's up in my tank right now. Would it be better if I placed the filter horizontally on the bottom of the aquarium and let the water shoot up? Does a 300l/h filter generate enough current to reach the top?
Livi attached the following image:
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| Author |
RE: Gasping and strange appearance |
Livi
Member
Posts: 46
Location: Hungary
Joined: 17.03.09 |
| Posted on 02-04-2009 16:21 |
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The water surface right now:
Livi attached the following image:
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| Author |
RE: Gasping and strange appearance |
Livi
Member
Posts: 46
Location: Hungary
Joined: 17.03.09 |
| Posted on 02-04-2009 16:22 |
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The filter seen from the side of the tank
Livi attached the following image:
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| Author |
RE: Gasping and strange appearance |
Livi
Member
Posts: 46
Location: Hungary
Joined: 17.03.09 |
| Posted on 02-04-2009 16:23 |
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The filter, from above:
Livi attached the following image:
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| Author |
RE: Gasping and strange appearance |
Livi
Member
Posts: 46
Location: Hungary
Joined: 17.03.09 |
| Posted on 02-04-2009 16:54 |
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I added the new treatment to the water now. It's yellow and really stinks... Is it normal? The other one didn't stink... My goldies became a bit nervous now that I added the new water.
[The other thing (Sera Bio-Nitrivec) made the water a bit hazy, but the "manual" says it's normal...] |
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| Author |
RE: Gasping and strange appearance |
Venus
Super Administrator
Posts: 3832
Location: Springfield Missouri
Joined: 26.08.07 |
| Posted on 02-04-2009 17:05 |
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Does it smell like sulfur? Sulfur is commonly used in water treatments. The smell will dissipate soon. Make sure when you add the treatment that you dilute it in a fresh water tub first.
I've never seen it turn water yellow. My tank water is often on the yellowish side, but this is because I've got algae growing which tints the water. Some fish foods, like Tetra have a tendency to tint the water; no big deal. I wouldn't worry about it, but if treatment clouds the water, that's not good.
When water clouds it's indication of little or no oxygen. This can occur during (what we call) a bacteria bloom; or free floating bacteria.
Makes me wonder if your previous treatment may have taking oxygen from the water.
aboveallhouseplans.com Persistence is Omnipotent
Edited by Venus on 02-04-2009 17:08 |
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| Author |
RE: Gasping and strange appearance |
Livi
Member
Posts: 46
Location: Hungary
Joined: 17.03.09 |
| Posted on 02-04-2009 17:41 |
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I think I confused you a bit with that "yellow" thing... What I meant was that the water treatment itself was yellow and it indeed smelled sulfur-ish...
Now about the other water treatment: it says it has beneficial bacterias and that it can make the water cloudy for awhile... Now the haze disappeared, so I think it's alright... |
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| Author |
RE: Gasping and strange appearance |
Venus
Super Administrator
Posts: 3832
Location: Springfield Missouri
Joined: 26.08.07 |
| Posted on 02-04-2009 17:53 |
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Give the name of this treatment so I can research it; Water treatment shouldn't contain beneficial bacteria. This sounds like a cycling aid; these products can cause trouble.
The water treatment you need removes chlorine, chloramines, ammonia and nitrite; the latter two are the most important.
aboveallhouseplans.com Persistence is Omnipotent |
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| Author |
RE: Gasping and strange appearance |
Livi
Member
Posts: 46
Location: Hungary
Joined: 17.03.09 |
| Posted on 02-04-2009 18:01 |
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The chlorine remover: Niche/Dymax Aqua Plus (Aqua Safe)
The ammonia & nitrite remover: Sera Bio-Nitrivec
Thank you for your help!
Edited by Livi on 02-04-2009 18:01 |
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| Author |
RE: Gasping and strange appearance |
Venus
Super Administrator
Posts: 3832
Location: Springfield Missouri
Joined: 26.08.07 |
| Posted on 02-04-2009 18:32 |
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I found the treatments online, but not a lot of information on Niche/Dymax Aqua Plus . I just realized you're in Hungary; this may explain the difference in products, and the high pH.
Let's wait to see if the pH affects the fish. Chances are; they've been in this pH since birth and are conditioned to it.
Watch for these symptoms; turning whitish, peeling or chafing.
Go ahead and use the treatment; it's not what I'd prefer, but much better than nothing. Who knows, it may work perfectly. If not, you can order product online.
Since I don't know what your tap water conditions are; it's hard to make a recommendation. This treatment Sera Bio-Nitrivec adds minerals; and since you've got a high pH (meaning a lot of minerals) I wonder if this won't increase pH further.
If you see pH levels rising, stop using the treatment considering adding the bottled water.
The pumps you've added look great; you're goldfish will appreciate the oxygen. Spectacular surface action.
Wish I could help more, but you're welcome
aboveallhouseplans.com Persistence is Omnipotent |
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| Author |
RE: Gasping and strange appearance |
Livi
Member
Posts: 46
Location: Hungary
Joined: 17.03.09 |
| Posted on 02-04-2009 18:43 |
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Oh, one more question: This pump I'm using has no so called "check valve". The instructions say I should put one into the plastic tube connected to the airstone to eliminate the chance of sucking back water into the pump in case of power failure or when I'm disconnecting the device... Should I really get one or can I operate the pump safely without it? (I really don't want to get anyone electrocuted or damage the pump)...
Can I leave the thing on for the weekend (when I'm going back to my hometown for 2 days and leave the fish all alone in my dorm room) or is it unsafe to operate without supervision with no "backflow-halter"? |
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| Author |
RE: Gasping and strange appearance |
Venus
Super Administrator
Posts: 3832
Location: Springfield Missouri
Joined: 26.08.07 |
| Posted on 02-04-2009 19:02 |
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It's a bad idea to turn it off for the weekend or any time for that matter. The fish need the oxygen and the friendly bugs could begin to die off if the pump shuts down for too long.
The risk isn't electrocuting you or the fish, but ruining the pump. Then the manufacturer would have to replace. My pumps have been shut down during power outages and never had a problem. I wouldn't worry.
You'll need a sponge to place over the intake valve soon. This sponge will act as a filter and keep you water free of debris.
I hope you're studying to be a marine biologist
aboveallhouseplans.com Persistence is Omnipotent |
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| Author |
RE: Gasping and strange appearance |
Livi
Member
Posts: 46
Location: Hungary
Joined: 17.03.09 |
| Posted on 02-04-2009 19:26 |
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I'm sorry, but I don't really know which is the intake valve on my air pump... Is this the one I connected the airstone to?
Actually, I'm studying to become a doctor... I wasn't that interested in fish, but when my friends brought me these guys (saying "pisces to Pisces" I really got to love them.. I panicked when one of them almost died in that bowl after only 3 days and that's when I started searching the NET... it came as a shock to see how hard it was to keep fish PROPERLY...
Now my friends think I'm crazy because all the equipment I've bought cost a LOT more than the fish themselves |
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